Why Does Everyone Hate SEO?

May 14, 2024It Depends - An SEO Podcast, SEO

In this conversation, Jay and Lindsie discuss the negative perception of SEO and the reasons why people hate it. They touch on topics such as bad user experiences, unrealistic expectations, fear-mongering sales tactics, and the impact on journalism. They emphasize the importance of finding a trustworthy SEO partner and highlight the value of SEO in data analysis and understanding target markets. They also discuss the need for a rebranding of the SEO industry and the importance of setting clear distinctions between good and bad practices.

 

Takeaways

  • The negative perception of SEO is often fueled by bad user experiences, unrealistic expectations, and fear-mongering sales tactics.
  • Finding a trustworthy SEO partner is crucial for success and avoiding negative experiences.
  • SEO offers value beyond keyword optimization, including data analysis and understanding target markets.
  • The SEO industry needs a rebranding to differentiate between good and bad practices.
  • Clear distinctions should be made to educate businesses and marketers about realistic expectations and the benefits of ethical SEO.

 

Transcript

Jay (00:00.078)

not gonna be able to drink that for a little while and also I’m like wondering is this I hear like English people talk about a proper cup of tea or a nice cup of tea and I wonder if there’s a difference because like proper could be like it’s a certain type like it’s the the English breakfast tea or whatever it is so it’s like the right type of tea or made the right way but it could still be bad and not nice, right?

 

Lindsie Nelson (03:38.041)

Hi Jay. How’s it going? It’s good. I’m good. Are you feeling good?

 

Jay (03:39.625)

Hey, Lindsey, how’s it going?

 

Jay (03:47.401)

Yeah, I mean it’s been stormy and rainy. My house did not blow away. Mother nature tried its hardest, but we’re still here. So that makes it a good day.

 

Lindsie Nelson (03:58.169)

Makes it a good day, yeah. And so today, we’re gonna do something different with our podcast, okay? I’m gonna start by telling you a story, all right? To get you in like the right mind space for this podcast. And I’m not gonna give it away yet what exactly we’re gonna talk about, but we’re gonna start with a story. Does that sound good?

 

Jay (04:20.008)

Is it about like forest animals eating children? Cause those are my favorite types of stories.

 

Lindsie Nelson (04:26.809)

Absolutely not. That is not at all what the story is. And it is related to SEO. So just setting expectations that is work related. Okay. All right. So let me get you kind of settled into the situation. We’re at an event put on by this big tech company. All right. The room is full of marketers and salespeople and entrepreneurs. Everybody’s kind of…

 

Jay (04:37.35)

Okay fine, go ahead.

 

Lindsie Nelson (04:55.353)

low chatter throughout the whole room. There’s a decent amount of energy. A speaker just finished talking about videos and he was so enthusiastic about connecting with people, about telling stories that really matter, about connecting with humans where they are really. And just like all speakers, they ended with, any questions? Like, let’s talk about this and…

 

Hands are flying in the air, right? People have questions, really engaged in what he had to say. And first question is, will this help with SEO? And I kind of sat up a little bit, right? Because I’m always interested what the speaker who doesn’t do SEO, what they’re going to say. And he said, not really. This is for people, not for SEO. And let that sit in the air for a minute. This is for people, not for SEO.

 

Jay (05:52.901)

Yeah, I mean, I’ve definitely heard versions of that before. So I’m guessing you took some objection to that statement.

 

Lindsie Nelson (06:05.657)

I think it was also just so reflective of the things that I hear all the time. Like you said, like it’s not like this is the first time I’ve heard somebody say that. It’s not the last time somebody is gonna say that. But it just, as I sat there, felt like SEO was just this dirty, seedy thing that people like don’t really want to do, but they have to do. And then there are…

 

all the things that they’re doing, they’re like, well, I wanna know if this is gonna make me rank number one on Google. And it just, it feels bad when people talk about it in this way. And I also don’t think it’s unfounded. I think there’s been a lot of garbage in this industry for a long.

 

Jay (06:54.435)

There has, and I mean, certainly as like more and more people have gotten online and gotten a voice through social media and whatever, a lot of, a lot of things that maybe aren’t that big a deal in the grand scheme of things become a big deal. You know, I mean, I think if you’re comparing us to like the cigarette companies or something like that, there’s hopefully a distinction, but it certainly doesn’t feel that way on unlike the average day browsing.

 

you know, browsing Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever it might be and reading what people are saying about SEO.

 

Lindsie Nelson (07:29.433)

Right. Well, I think it’s even, it comes up in sales conversations. It comes up in new relationships where it’s like, you do SEO, like how many links do you buy? And how do you shove enough keywords in the white space of your pages? Like it just, even today, it feels like I have to tell people like, not all SEO is like that. So to kind of curb this conversation into where I think it’s advantageous is,

 

I wanna talk about why people hate SEO, who hates it, why they hate it, what are the reasons we’re here today and kind of close out the conversation with like, should they hate it? Is it this the dark grimy underworld of marketing or are there things that are just less understood? And I think we could probably have a podcast about every single one of these pieces that we’re gonna probably bring up.

 

But I think having an idea of all the individual things that could contribute to this is an interesting place to start.

 

Jay (08:40.672)

Yeah. And I mean, I think it’s going to be no surprise that we’re going to come out of this saying that like you shouldn’t hate SEO or at least most people shouldn’t. We have certainly our own point of view on this, but I do think it’s important to like address the reasons that.

 

SEO has a bad reputation with a lot of people. And then think about, you know, if you’re someone that’s doing SEO, or if SEO is like part of your life, you run a website or a marketing team, whatever it might be, like, think about how you’re interacting with SEO, and are you approaching it the wrong way, working with the wrong people, something like that, you know, rather than just.

 

I think there’s a lot of people out there that just are like, if you if you think SEO is bad, then you just don’t know what you’re talking about. And I’m going to ignore you. Like, that’s not a few if you do SEO for a living. That’s not a good move for your career, probably.

 

Lindsie Nelson (09:40.217)

Mm -hmm. And I think just to add on to that is they’re not all the same. I mean, the theories of SEO and what works and how to kind of function in this space can be very different person to person, agency to agency. Like you find the people that you align with best, especially as a marketing decision maker, if you’re internal and you’re working with an agency or looking to work with an agency, they’re not all the same.

 

And here are some pieces of what you can kind of look for. So let’s start with talking about some of the whos. So if we talk about like the average consumer, right? Like you’re Joe in his house right now and you Google like, I don’t know, it’s coming close to lunchtime, like how long to boil noodles for? Why would that person hate us? You know?

 

Jay (10:38.139)

Yeah, you know, the user experience of websites and, you know, mentioning like recipes is my favorite example, because if, you know, I don’t know about how long the boil noodles, but some, you know, let’s say you look up a pasta recipe, you’re probably going to get some bloggers like

 

15 paragraph story of their family trip to Italy and how they ate all sorts of pasta and blah, blah, blah. And it’s just like, show me how to make the damn spaghetti. so yeah, I mean, I think, I think SEO in a lot of cases impacts people’s ability to just like get answers to questions. And they, this is always a tough one because we’re, we’re like steeped in the industry and.

 

Lindsie Nelson (11:14.841)

right.

 

Jay (11:31.162)

I see a lot of our fellow SEOs out there. I think are very blind to just like how normal people work. I don’t know, like, I think people might blame SEO for this. Like the average person might blame SEO for some of this stuff just cause they’ve like heard from somewhere else that it’s SEO’s fault. But,

 

Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I know people get frustrated because of SEO, but I don’t know that they know they’re getting frustrated because of SEO. I guess it’s what I’m trying to get to.

 

Lindsie Nelson (12:02.809)

Yeah, I think a lot of the general consumer blame is it’s just Google’s fault. And we can do that. Like we can point some fingers at Google, but it’s also people, I think, consistently trying to calm the system in whatever way is possible. And so it’s the average consumer. It’s like, Google just ranks this crap. And it’s like, well, no, somebody is like trying to gamify the system. And they’re creating.

 

listicles of the 10 crappiest whatever you can have and then building a bunch of backlinks to it and then here it is it shows up and now you have this on your first page of content where you’re actually trying to answer a question. So I do agree with you I don’t know that the average person is like SEO sucks but I think the industry is more of the finger pointing there.

 

Jay (12:56.183)

Yeah, and I also think that a lot of like everyday folks are hurt by SEO in ways that they just don’t, they don’t realize or they don’t realize until it’s too late. Like I remember I, I was like going on a rant online and called out, wiki how, you know, a site that basically exists for SEO. It’s like,

 

bad how -to guides for everything you could ever want or not want a how -to guide for. And like I just picked the first example that came to mind which was like seeding a new toilet.

 

And the the wiki how article I’m this was like a month or two ago. I’m pretty sure it hasn’t changed It had been up for years You know it like ranks number one or number two for how to install a toilet And it says like remove your old toilet gives you steps put a rag in the drain pipe so like nothing falls down there and Smelly gases don’t escape out of it, which is a thing you should do and then it says put the new toilet in

 

And it shows like the rakes still in the pipe as they’re installing like in their little drawings. So like, you’re going to end up with a clogged pipe and have to like remove your toilet if you follow their step, their instructions step by step. So like, it’s a dramatic example, but there’s so many just like half -hearted attempts at giving information or instructions to things.

 

all over the internet that are done just for SEO reasons and people are like getting bad information, bad advice, misleading, or even like, you know, non -disclosed advertising, whatever it might be. And it’s just like people’s, people’s lives could be a little bit better if like all of the stuff on the internet was things that people put more effort to and not just like, we’re going to do this thing for SEO.

 

Lindsie Nelson (15:01.561)

to get more views, to get more ad dollars, all those different pieces. All right, I wanna move to businesses, which is people that we talk to on definitely a more frequent basis. And I think one of the things that I hear a lot is like, why even try? Like we can’t, especially for the average size business owner, like.

 

Jay (15:05.876)

Yeah.

 

Lindsie Nelson (15:23.161)

why invest in SEO when our bigger competitors are investing more and they’re buying the space. Like, it’s organic, but it’s not. And there’s so many conspiracy theories of like, well, if you just pay more and add dollars, you get better organic. And if you do all this, and so I think there’s a lot of like, again, playing the game that a lot of the mid -sized businesses just are like, meh, I don’t wanna play the game.

 

Jay (15:51.794)

Yeah, and this one, I mean, I think perspective is needed more than anything. Honestly, there’s plenty of instances recently and in the past of like Google, whoever favors big companies, big brands, people like big companies and big brands. So I guess what do you expect them to do? But I feel like there’s this like impossible…

 

I don’t know, this like disconnect from reality, I think is what I’m looking for where people have this like rosy image of the internet and search engines.

 

Just being like free and open and the best thing always wins which like goes back to the the old days of the internet before Big companies were like playing on the internet because there was no money to be made so like they they want like the the openness and the ease of accessibility of like the pre money days of the internet, but with the money and Like that world doesn’t exist it

 

Lindsie Nelson (16:58.969)

I want to benefit.

 

Jay (17:00.72)

It never really existed. Like as soon as people realized like, Hey, you can make money on this thing. Then big companies went there and big companies were formed there. And, you know, I think I always like, you know, cite the, the physical world comparison, you know, like if you’re, if you’re a hardware store, like a little, you know, 3000 square foot privately owned store and you’re right next door to Home Depot.

 

Lindsie Nelson (17:10.617)

Mm -hmm.

 

Jay (17:30.607)

that doesn’t mean that like you can’t exist. But if you think that you’re on a level playing field with them, then maybe you should think of a different line of work, I guess. And the same thing is true on the internet where it’s like you can make a good business as a small brand, like showing up on Google or being on exclusively online. But this whole idea of like,

 

we’re going to beat out Amazon and Walmart and whatever. That’s it seems like people legitimately think that they should be able to be on a level playing field with the largest retailers in the history of humanity.

 

Lindsie Nelson (18:08.761)

Mm hmm. Well, and I think there’s a space for everybody. It’s just a matter of finding that space. And I think that’s where, you know, I guess getting to where I think the misconception is here is that it’s a matter of finding where you need to be to reach your market. And let’s say you sell, you know, clothes to 18 to 25 year old

 

you know, women in large cities, something like that, where you have the specific market that you target, well, then you’re not, don’t try to rank for skirts. Like that as a general term just doesn’t work for you. Like talk to your consumer about what they, what matters to them. Maybe it’s what they wear to the office and what is trendy. What do you show up to a board meeting in when you’ve never joined a meeting like that before or.

 

You know, these things that actually their consumers may care about rather than just like, I can’t do SEO because I’m never going to show up for the most general terms that relate to what I said.

 

Jay (19:19.373)

Yeah, yeah, so there’s just you’ve got to be realistic. You know, we we need to like identify what we do well, who we do it well for and go after them and have some business strategy beyond outranking Amazon for everything.

 

Lindsie Nelson (19:37.081)

So, yes, and I want to move on to this next one that I think is one that we absolutely cannot dispel in any kind of way, but it is the constant bombardment of SEO outreach and emails from everywhere and anywhere of like, I can get you more traffic in the next 30 days, I will triple your business if you just respond to this email for SEO. And it’s like,

 

this entire industry is tied to these absolutely obnoxious emails that, by the way, both of us who own an SEO agency, right, like we work here, get these emails every single day from people promising to triple our business through SEO.

 

Jay (20:26.282)

yeah, I got one that was, your website talks about Google, but you don’t rank number one for that term. Yeah, I guess not. And yeah, even like there’s a level of these that are really bad, but not as bad as like you don’t rank for Google, that we still, and everyone still gets multiple times a day. And…

 

Lindsie Nelson (20:34.041)

Yeah, how dare you?

 

Jay (20:56.138)

You know, it’s one of those things where it’s, I don’t know, email, at least in the U S is like basically completely unregulated. So it’s the equivalent of if people were just able to come to your house and be like, your roof is, is falling apart and your house is going to collapse and then burst into flames. Like if people were allowed to do that, I’m sure a lot of homeowners would be freaking out on a regular basis.

 

Lindsie Nelson (21:24.313)

Right.

 

Jay (21:25.513)

And in the, in like the email sales world or the cold outreach sales world, like doing that stuff is totally normal. And SEO folks, or at least a lot of them have no problem with fear mongering. Like we ran a page speed report and your site got a 23. You, you’re not going to rank for anything. You need to hire us immediately.

 

Lindsie Nelson (21:47.161)

Right.

 

pay us thousands of dollars tomorrow and it will be great. And I think it’s unfortunate. It is what it is. Like you’re not gonna get away from that piece. But I think back to kind of what the original point is of that, like that’s not every SEO agency, that’s not everybody in SEO that is just fear -mongering, but there are partnerships that you can find where it is.

 

open and honest and can focus you where you need to be focused rather than just like being number one for Google.

 

Jay (22:27.495)

Yeah, well and I mean the the problem here isn’t that the emails exist It’s that they send the emails because they obviously work at least sometimes and Companies will say hey, let’s give this a shot. It’s 200 bucks a month or whatever it is We tried seo and then we had a bad experience and now we’re gonna say bad things about seo

 

Lindsie Nelson (22:55.097)

Yeah. Well, and I think that’s interesting too. You know, I think that business owners are marketers in general. That’s a big one we hear is about like, I have no idea how much this is going to make me in there. What’s the return here and how do I, am I going to, is this worth my investment? It’s not like advertising where you have the direct.

 

ROAS numbers where you’re like, I spent $100 and I made $150 or I made $350. One worked and one didn’t work, right? SEO is like, guys, it’s a long game. And I think a lot of businesses can feel like it’s just this like black box of no profitability. And…

 

people within SEO can play off of that too of like, well, who knows if you’re ever going to make money, you just keep paying us for it. So it’s kind of this like cycle of, nobody really knowing what’s going on, I guess.

 

Jay (23:56.676)

Yeah, and you’re right, a lot of folks…

 

really play into that. Like it’s you, you can’t know this, you know, it’s job security for us that we can’t tell you what we’re doing. And again, goes into a lot of folks out there have bad experiences. We’ve, we’ve worked with so many people that it’s like, yeah, we worked with this SEO consultant or agency, whatever, and we never knew what they were doing. And not even like the, the secrets of their decision making, but just like,

 

Lindsie Nelson (24:06.073)

Mm -hmm.

 

Jay (24:29.091)

We didn’t see any of their work. We don’t know if they actually were working. And yeah, there’s a lot of folks that like it that way. And I mean, you find that in any industry that is like super specialized and done on like a service or consultative basis, you find people like that, that are just kind of like taking advantage and scamming. But, you know, we’re talking about SEO and there’s…

 

Lindsie Nelson (24:31.289)

Right.

 

Jay (24:58.275)

There’s people all over the world, including really big name companies that it’s just like they’re, they’re like at best running some reports or something like that. And it’s like, well, we’re doing things, but it’s, it’s really complicated. You wouldn’t understand.

 

Lindsie Nelson (25:16.601)

Yeah, and I would say to tie it back to like the kind of questions to ask when you’re trying to find your right partner for SEO is, you know, what does that communication look like? What does the transparency look like? What are you going to be doing? And I don’t mean I want an hourly report of all the things that your team is going to be doing on my website, but rather like, what is the output?

 

what are the things that we’re accomplishing? What are SEO tasks that are being accomplished? I think a good agency is open and honest about those things and it’s not behind a wall. It’s not locked behind some secret door where you have no idea what’s going on. You should always be able to ask those questions and get honest responses for them. So I think that that is kind of…

 

an issue in the industry as a whole, but doesn’t mean again that that’s the story everywhere. There’s a lot of good companies that we know of as well, as well as ours. Well, I’m going to say, well, we’re one of them. I’m going to throw my hat in the ring. That like is that that very much is transparent with what’s going on.

 

Jay (26:31.615)

Yeah. And I think too, I mean, we’re, we’re talking about like the nefarious actors here, but I think there’s also a lot of people that are in SEO, including like prominent folks or successful folks that like their background is being a writer or their background is being, you know, more of a developer or technical person. And just a lot of those folks, it’s like, well, the good writing is the point or fixing the technical stuff is the point.

 

And so when, when you get into like, well, how is this going to make my business more money? There’s like, well, that’s, that’s not what I do. You know, I make the writing good and then people search for things and you show up. so it, it, it requires a little more, just a, I don’t know, a little more thought on everyone doing SEO of, of just like.

 

Businesses aren’t hiring SEOs because they they think that SEO is like a valuable thing to do or or like a Good thing to do for humanity or whatever. It’s not like a charitable cause they’re doing it to make more money to get more customers so I think there’s just like a lot of folks that that need to stop and

 

Reframe what they’re doing in terms of like how are you actually helping whoever? Is behind this website so that I see that a lot and I get it but You know, we’re selling a marketing service so that’s you got to focus it in that in those terms

 

Lindsie Nelson (28:07.673)

Yeah, and I think it’s interesting too how, I mean, I think any like, we work with a ton of web developers and other types of agencies. But how many companies that build websites or do social media or content writing, they’re like, we also do SEO. It’s like this like tack on thing of, yeah, we’ll do that too. And like you said, it’s a secondary. It’s like, we’ll build you a website and we’ll, you know, we…

 

We know that you need title tags, like so check SEO. And I really, really try to encourage folks to like have a third party involved in doing SEO. It is a channel. This is an expertise. You’re not gonna have your web developer put out billboard ads, right? You’re not gonna be like, you build websites? Well, you know JavaScript, therefore.

 

you can build a billboard off of the freeway and it’s gonna be great. It’s like they’re completely different and having support in those spaces is something that you need. It is not a tack -on solution. It is an expertise.

 

Jay (29:23.322)

Yeah, I know some like web development agencies that if you build a site with them, they have like an SEO team that’s involved and they’re like in meetings and stuff like that and, you know, guiding the development of the site or guiding it from an SEO perspective. And…

 

That’s few and far between in my experience. So yeah, a lot of times it’s like, well, we’re, we’re building your site on, on this platform and there’s a box for meta descriptions. So SEO is there. Nothing to worry about. Yep. We’ll, we’ll populate it with a templated meta description and we’ve got some SEO and, and then there’s like, it’s a, you know, like.

 

Lindsie Nelson (30:00.217)

We checked it.

 

Jay (30:12.473)

It’s all JavaScript that Google can’t render or Google can’t render it like most of it. And then your site is just invisible to search. That happens way too often.

 

Lindsie Nelson (30:27.129)

Yeah, it really absolutely does. Okay, well, I want, I know we could probably have this conversation about why people hate SEO and all the different pieces. And I wanna move us into some of the more positives. Before I get there, what is like the one thing that you hear the most or that you feel the most in terms of why people outside of SEO folks,

 

What is the icky feeling that people have about SDO that you want to make sure we talk about?

 

Jay (31:00.919)

you know the we had a big list of people and I think the like the world of journalism is probably to me the biggest one, because Like seo has not killed journalism by any means the the like Reliance on an ad supported model online has has been an issue more than anything. but

 

like SEO has had an impact on journalism in terms of like how articles are written, how headlines are written. I mean, a lot of that’s social media too, but like clickbait is also an SEO thing. You know, there’s forever a thing of like Google likes list articles. And so put, put like the number of list items in your title and blah, blah. But

 

where, where this becomes a thing for, for like the perception of SEO is like journalists have individual platforms too. And.

 

They have not been shy about sharing their feelings about SEO on social media, on personal blogs, in editorials, whatever it might be. And that stuff cuts through to all of these other groups we’ve been talking about. So I think, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of folks that might be frustrated with SEO and have bad experiences with bad SEO people. And they, but I think they just kind of would all exist in their little silos.

 

Lindsie Nelson (32:21.337)

Mm -hmm.

 

Jay (32:36.39)

but when there is a Wired article or when you know Forbes turns into nothing but listicles That’s the stuff that gets talked about by everybody and kind of unites everybody against SEO so I don’t know what you do about that, but I mean, I think the the biggest thing is is like

 

the bad SEO has been some of the loudest SEO. And that’s what that’s what like the journalists see and experience. So really trying to like change that narrative is is like the most important thing in all of this to me.

 

Lindsie Nelson (33:11.577)

Mm -hmm.

 

Lindsie Nelson (33:20.057)

Yeah. This is the first step in recovery, Jay is acknowledging we have a problem and taking steps to fix it. Okay. So I think if we were to round this out in a positive way, I mean, I don’t disagree really with any of these points. Like this all exists. It does like all of the pain points. It’s not like it’s false.

 

it exists, it will continue to exist. I think my biggest point here is your SEO is only as good as the partner that you work with. And not everybody is doing SEO in sketchy or negative types of ways. And maybe you wanna work with that kind of person. Maybe you wanna just like build traffic super fast, you don’t care how you get there and…

 

how terrible the content is or whatever it is that’s gonna be happening. But SEO can also be incredibly advantageous in terms of data analysis, understanding your markets, understanding so much more about who you’re selling to and what they care about. And I think that is so massively understated as a value in SEO. It is not just putting keywords on a page. And I think that there is…

 

space for us to continue to talk about the value that is in working with an SEO expert that can actually harness and utilize the information we have access to.

 

Jay (35:00.016)

Yeah, I think I think that’s a good point. I also think that The those of us who who feel like we are doing good work in seo and sustainable work I mean, there’s a lot of people out there that Are totally confident that they are good at seo

 

but they are generally the people that are showing the like one to two month straight up growth curves and then not leaving out, you know, when it falls off three months later or whenever there’s a core algorithm update. I don’t think those people ever would think that they’re doing like good work, like that they are making websites better. They are, they are good at, at like getting traffic to websites through search.

 

so those of us that think that we are like doing SEO for the sake of like making websites better or however you want to word it, I think we can all do a better job of, of maybe having some like unified idea of what SEO should look like. And I think, I mean, this is something that like I want to work on and maybe the rest of the industry will disagree with, with like our take on it, but.

 

Just saying like, Hey, this, this is like realistic expectations. This is unrealistic expectations. And this is the risk that comes with chasing after those unrealistic expectations. And like, in terms of, you know, one SEO to another is going to have like a different nuanced approach to how to solve each problem. But like, these are the types of things that should be done for good SEO. And.

 

Lindsie Nelson (36:40.377)

Mm -hmm.

 

Jay (36:46.541)

you know, hammering in the point that if we’re going to add copy to a page, you know, let’s let’s get away from this idea that like, well, no one’s actually going to read it. It’s just for SEO. Like, no, if we’re going to if we’re going to publish something on your website, we want everybody to read it. And and like pushing some of those general principles, I think would go a long, long way in our industry because it is

 

Lindsie Nelson (36:58.297)

Mm -hmm.

 

Jay (37:16.876)

someone who has like been Involved in SEO for like 20 years and it’s been my job for 10 or 15 years whatever it is at this point I Get confused trying to figure out Like do I do I would I recommend this agency to someone who is looking for an SEO partner? based on like their approach and

 

you just have no idea you I mean, you got to like, not only look at a case study, but like audit the website that is in the case study to see how are they actually getting these results? Is it sustainable? Is it the right way to do things in my mind? And that’s, that’s hard. So no, no, like busy business owner or marketing director.

 

should realistically be able to make that decision or, but they shouldn’t have that like forced on them. Like there, there needs to be a, a certification or a standard or something that you can at least use as a, an entry point to narrowing down your decision.

 

Lindsie Nelson (38:11.673)

right.

 

Lindsie Nelson (38:22.361)

for quality. So SEO needs a rebrand. We have some great agency contacts that we know that do some fantastic branding. We’ll just have to work with MJ on how to rebrand SEOs in entire industry, starting with It Depends Here and growing from there.

 

Jay (38:43.593)

I’ve seriously thought about like, hey, we should say like we do something other than SEO just to like get out of it. But if whatever that other thing is actually took off, the like scammy link builders and AI content farmers and whatever else, they would just follow. So I mean, it’s just, you need to…

 

Lindsie Nelson (39:06.873)

Until next time, bye.

 

Jay (39:08.969)

We just need to make clear distinctions for everybody on like what is good, what is bad, and you know, stand behind that.

 

Lindsie Nelson (39:19.289)

Yeah, and what you believe in. Alright, Jay, well, thank you so much for listening to my story, which is one you’ve probably heard before, and talking about the dirty world of SEO and how we’re gonna at least be the first step in making positive change. So, on to the next.

 

Jay (39:40.361)

Before we go, I mean, I think we need to kind of answer the question from the start. Is this podcast for people or SEO?

 

Lindsie Nelson (39:50.873)

My intention is this podcast is for people. So seven people that listen to us. Hello, it’s for you and not for Roblox.

 

Jay (40:03.368)

I think it’s for both.

 

Lindsie Nelson (40:04.569)

I count maybe a little bit, but mostly for people. We’ll go with that.

 

Jay (40:09.672)

I mean, yes, all right. Well, we’ll talk to you later, Lindsay. Bye.

 

Lindsie Nelson (40:12.793)

All right. Thanks, Jay. Bye.

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